Conversation transcript: Olivier and 'Gerry'

0:30 Greetings

Gerry 0:51 – 1:10 “This is a significant conversation, my friend, and that’s I want to see eyeball to eyeball on this one. In the course of the last two weeks, since the by election was called, there has been discussions with the premier and with Glenn Thibeault. Thibeault, as of this morning, has decided he’s gonna run.”

Andrew 1:11 “Glenn Thibeault, okay.”

Gerry 1:12- 1:30 “He will not only cross the floor, he’s gonna cross the levels of government, instead of being a Federal Member, he will run for the provincials. So that’s huge, because it will totally deplete the NDP, ‘cause we now have an NDP MP for Liberal MPP.”

Andrew 1:30 “Yeah.”

Gerry 1:31 1:38 “So she, and Pat Sorbara, and I, have had these conversations, which I have been totally sworn to silence for this period of time.”

Andrew 1:38 “Sure.”

Gerry 1:39 – 2:09 “So, this morning after he told us he was, I asked him, I said “look, I think it’s only fair that I talk to Andrew, that I talk to Marianne, that’s why I called you, in fact I called you about three minutes after I hung up the phone from that. And I know that the intent was to have open nomination, with Andrew and Marianne selling memberships. I said, I think the nomination is very important to Glennn, but obviously he’d like to have an acclamation if everybody’s behind him because the NDP are gonna shit all over him.”

Andrew 2:09 “Well I’m sure…”

Gerry 2:10 – 3:01“So I come to you, on behalf of the premier, and on behalf of, yes, Thibeault, more indirectly, to ask you if you would consider stepping down, even more than that Andrew, nominating him. In the course of that deliberation, the Premier wants to talk to you. They would like to present to you options in terms of appointments, jobs, whatever, that you and her and Pat Sorbara could talk about it. Having said that, and I made it very clear to Premier Wynne

and to Pat Sorbara, is if Andrew says “take a hike”, you know what, we’ll go full tilt still, we have to respect that, but I said this is not running against Marianne Matichuk, this is pretty significant… shift of the universe, from NDP to Liberal, two different levels of government.”

Andrew 3:02 “Wow.”

Gerry 3:04 “So nobody knows about this, okay? You are sworn to silence about that [laughter]”

Andrew 3:09 “I gotta admit I’m a little floored”

Gerry 3:10 – 3:28 “Well we all were floored. When this gets out in the media, this will be huge, this will be like a title wave, because this is just unbelievable. Go home and say to your mother “guess what mum, I think Glenn thibeault is gonna go and run for the Liberals” she’d say “you’re crazy” […] that’s why nobody knew.”

Andrew 3:28 “Okay, okay.”

Gerry 3:28 – 4:10 “And that’s why, because nobody’s really believing it. And then we didn’t want to create a mess where then, people say he’s running, and then he gets on the media and says “I’m not running.” So he is committed this morning, he said to me “are you gonna talk to Andrew and are you gonna talk to Marianne?”… Marianne, between you and I, is a little bit sour grapes, because Marianne, well you know, “I should have run the last time” well, “shoulda coulda woulda” doesn’t do a whole lot. You did run, and I think on the basis that if you wanted to run again, which you indicated in the media, that was an expectation of our community, Andrew. But I don’t think anybody, had the Glenn Thibeault name, in that same sentence. And now it’s in the sentence.”

Andrew 4:10 “Sure.

Gerry 4:11 “So what’s your thought of this?”

Andrew 4:12 – 5:18 “Wow. Well […] I’m a little floored because I, you know when this all went down with Joe and whatnot, I mean […] I thought there was a lot of things going through my mind, “we’re gonna run again”, you know, and then speaking with the people that were a part of my team and close to me, and my family and whatnot, we’re all pretty comfortable in getting this going.[…] And nothing beside Glenn, he’s been a fantastic representative for Sudbury, he’s […] a veteran politician, and as you said, you know jumping the floor from one party to the next in terms of going from a federal to a provincial, and even so that’s huge. A big commitment for someone to want to take on, especially in Glenn’s case. That’s crazy. But my intentions were to run in this election. […] You’d probably have to give me a bit of time to figure this out.”

Gerry 5:18 – 5:40 “Oh, that’s why we’re doing a face-to-face, this is not something for over the phone […] all I ask of you, because I do respect you, […] and I said to them “Andrew’s on the record saying he wants to run, I told Matichuk not to do that. To her credit she was planning to make the announcement on Monday. So, she actually called me, to tell me about the announcement on Monday, and she was kind of pissed off, I’ll be quite honest.

Andrew 5:40 “Sure.”

Gerry 5:40 – 5:55 “and I said that “I don’t really think you should make the announcement” and her comment was, “no, okay I’ll stand down, I’m not happy about it, but I get it that Thibeault is obviously a real win for Wynne to be able to say “ jeez, I’m such a good Premier I even got the NDP people now running for me.”

Andrew 5:55 – 5:58 “Well it’s a big statement, it’s a huge statement to make.”

Gerry 5:58 – 6:35 “So you’re situation, I think there’s more commitment to you, that if you say “fine, I’m gonna go along with this, because it’s the right thing for the Premier and the Party, but in turn, I have to be guaranteed a future in what’s going on.” I think they should give that to you Andrew, either very short term, and say this is what we’re prepared to do, by the way down the road, we’re prepared to support you in other endeavours, or whatever you want, but you do need to think about it. My concern, and this is why I’m talking to you, whether it’s Conway Fraser, whether it’s Rick Bartolucci, none of them know about this. It’s a very small circle.”

Andrew 6:35 “No, and as I said, the last time I talked to Conway when the time when Joe had stepped down, and you know he’s just been bringing down the papers, and I get the odd comments through him, I haven’t talked to anyone. There’s Aaron and I and Mark Newell, and that’s our gang. And again, this is not leaving this room.”

Gerry 6:51 – 7:08 “No no, but I think you need your comfort level to… by the way if you say “to hell with it, I’m gonna run, well guess what Glenn, I’m gonna start selling memberships. Guess what, we’ll have a full blown thing…” I don’t… I shouldn’t say that, because I can’t see that, I retract that.”

Andrew 7:06 “Sure, sure,”

Gerry 7:07 – 7:23 “The Premier up to now, has always said to me, she’s in favour of a nomination race. So I want to make that really clear, she’s never said to me “I want to appoint him”, to be fair to Glenn, Glenn has never said “I want to be appointed.”

Andrew 7:23 – 7:34 “Oh I’m sure. […] Well… I’m sure, and I mean, and with Glenn I mean he’s in a pretty stable position as it is. He goes and turns around and starts selling memberships, I mean that’s…”

Glenn 7:34 “A tough one.”

Andrew 7:34 “Sure.”

Gerry 7:35 – 7:43 “They’re depending on you my friend, again, how much fire you’ve got in your belly, only you know Andrew, and again I think you need to think about that.”
Andrew 7:44 -7:55 “I that just… a question that’s just running through my mind right now is […] is there an issue with me [phone rings] sorry go ahead.”

Gerry 7:55 “Oh no no, God no, that was never… that was never-”

Andrew 7:58 “I’m just, I’m wondering, as things have gone, I mean it’s been pretty quiet for two weeks-”

Gerry 8:05 “The two weeks are all about him.”

Andrew 8:06 “And I’m sure, and I’m sure, […] on my side of the table, it just really sounds like, you know, there’s been a lot of fishing, I guess… no, nothing like that? I just it seems a bit, you know, painful on my end seeing that, you know…”

Gerry 8:22 -9:07 “When they called me, I said “I don’t believe it. […] So I’ll give you another piece, Andrew, for the last three years, I have been harassing Thibeault, to cross the floor federally and join Trudeau’s group. So they called me and said, “are you trying to get Trudeau to run for us” I said “yeah, federally”, “no, no, provincially” “never.” I said I wouldn’t think that in a thousand years. […] And so they said, “we’ve got this rumour from Dominic Giroux, that he’s pissed off with Mulcair and he wants to run for us, so, Glenn and I are friends, I said “Glenn, I wanna take you out for breakfast, lo and behold, yeah, […]

Andrew 9:08 – 9:42 “ […] I get that, and again, Glenn is a fantastic politician, a great guy, you know, I don’t know him that well, but I mean, I’ve crossed paths with him, and he’s been a good person, and it’s nothing to do with that, it’s just, you know, now that this has come up, it just, to me, seems… I don’t know. I definitely have to think about it, it wouldn’t take more than an evening, because I just had another meeting with four, five people today, looking to sell those memberships, and we’re going pretty much full out. So to turn around and pull a one eighty like that…”

Gerry 9:43 “This is tough Andrew.”

Andrew 9:44 “Yeah.”

Gerry: 9:45 - 10:31 “And I guess the thought is, not only is it tough, what’s in it for you? I hate to sound kind of… Machiavellian about it, but at the end of the day, if you take the high road on this, what is your reward? What do they say? “Andrew Olivier took a bullet for us, so what do we give to Andrew Olivier? By the way, I’ve already raised that question […] I said “the guy ran the last time, almost won, got a passion, he’s been a good candidate, likely, if you’d got a little bit better start last time, with perhaps, a little bit better mentors, you’d be the sitting member. Cimino screws it up, so he has soured the NDP, we now have a federal incumbent that’s popular that’s willing to run for us: that wasn’t in the scenario the last time, Andrew. So nobody was fishing.”

Andrew 10:32 – 10:37 “No no, that’s fine. And now that it’s come up, the conversation has to be had.”

Gerry 10:38 - 10:58 “What I’d like to do, if it’s agreeable with you, [laughter] you’re a class act Andrew, if you’d said to me “Lougheed, there’s the door, get the hell out of my office, I’ll see you at the nomination.” […] The reason I’m here is that Wynne wants to call you, but she doesn’t want to be told to eff off.”

Andrew 10:57 – 11:01 “Well, no, that’s definitely not my case.”

Gerry 11:00 – 11:05 “I know it isn’t, if it’s agreeable with you, I wanna ask her to give you a call and you and her can talk directly. […] but I wanna see what your lay of the land is.”

Andrew 11:08 – 11:29 “Honestly, […] I envision myself campaigning and running in four years. I see no reason why I wouldn’t do it now. I think with the support and the track record from the last election, I’m feeling pretty good about my chances. I’m not gonna lie, I’m feeling great about my chances.”

Gerry 11:29 11:34 “I’m thinking everybody is because of how Cimino left us. This is the opportunity we didn’t have before.”

Andrew 11:35 -12:31 “And I don’t want to take anything from Glenn, I mean it’s a great situation… opportunity, so to speak, right now. I’m still leaning towards, probably running, Gerry. I’m not gonna lie. […] It’s not just about me at this point, this is for myself, but there’s a lot of people involved, and more, the people that I care about. My family mostly, and the people that really worked hard. And so there’s a lot of consideration to take, and a message would have to be made if I do “take the high road” and I’m sure everybody will respect my decision, you know if I continue going on seeking the nomination, and becoming the candidate, I’ll still have their full support as well. So […] right now if you said I had to make a decision before you walked out that door, Gerry… I’m gonna run.”

Gerry 12:32 13:17 “Andrew, I respect that, again, my whole issue is that… the guy on the ground… the reason I’m presenting it the way I am… you need to follow your instincts, obviously, you to look at the short term long term, which you are, you’re a smart guy. You’re a consultant. The reason you consult is because you give good advice. So my point is, Wynne has not kept her hand in anything, all she has done is told me, is that there is this miraculous candidate come forward. […] Matichuk was telling me about the hundred people who were all gonna send out ten memberships, and she had a thousand people, and she could beat Andrew Olivier and la la la, that talk is cheap, okay? Which is all good. In an open nomination, “Joe Blow” the Janitor can go out and sell a thousand memberships and beat both you guys, and that’s what that’s all about.”

Andrew 13:18 – 13:23 “[…] And that type of defeat, I would be fine with. If that happened.”

Gerry 13:23 – 13:30 – “That’s the reality of… this is likely the most extraordinary circumstances [Andrew sighs] you’re ever gonna come up with.”

Andrew 13:31 – 13:33 “…I’m not gonna disagree with that, Gerry.”

Gerry 13:33 – 13:42 “Well, as you said… I was told this, I thought they got me mixed up with asking him to go to Trudeau, because I have had that conversation once.”

Andrew 13:43 – 13:45 “Sure, and that’s a brilliant move if you really think about it.”

Gerry 13:45 – 13:52“But I think he and Mulcair have had a fallout […] and I think it would be pretty obvious now that they’ve had a fallout. I guess last week he resigned as chair of national caucus.”

Andrew 13:52 “Wow, eh.”

Gerry 13:54 14:06 “So I guess there is an ill feeling, I don’t know, but having said that, between you and I, and this is the issue, the Premier, may stay with the nomination, she may go with an appointment, you don’t know. I think you and her need to talk about it.”

Andrew 14:06 “Well I would definitely be up for a conversation, I would not –

Gerry 14:11 -14:48 “I’m gonna tell her to call you. The other thing that I think that you need to think about, my friend, and it’s totally your call on this, if you say “fine Premier, I get it, you know what, this is certainly a shift of the NDP – Liberal universe, and I respect that” then you need to say “So, why would Andrew Olivier be motivated to do this? What’s in it for me? Politically, what’s in it for me? In my long term, short term, is there an appointment, are you gonna let me head up a commission… what are you giving me, for me to step down, that is worthwhile? Otherwise, guess what, I’m gonna go sell memberships and see what my chances are.” And I think that’s the point, only you and Kathleen Wynne can have that conversation.”

Andrew 14:48 – 15:11 “ Well I like to level with people, I mean that’s what I’m doing in this business, you know, getting into politics, because I think I have that ability, you know, to speak with people, put people together, and come up with the right solutions. But like I said, right, […] set aside for who it is, I was prepped and ready to go.”

Gerry 15:11 – 15:43 “Oh I know that, you’re on the newspapers saying that. That part of it Andrew… Matichuk, to be fair to the woman, I don’t think she’s insincere, I think on Monday she was gonna hold a press conference, and she was gonna say “I wanna go and race against Andrew Olivier.” Okay, we all get that […] nobody had the incumbent, veteran, politician step up and say “I think I want to change teams, and I think I wanna do provincial instead of federal.” And let’s face it, even the last time, Andrew, if Glenn had come forward, at that time, it would have changed the universe –

15:43 – 16:17 “Guaranteed, guaranteed… but he didn’t, and actually not too many people did at that point, there was just Elise and I. And I understand the situation and the delicateness of this one, and you know, we’re looking at the future, we know who’s in government, and I can appreciate anybody coming to an open nomination, right? And again, my position, as I said with Bill and the riding, I was right with you at that very meeting, the first word he… it might as well have been Rick sitting there […]”

Gerry 16:17 – 16:29 “Even Rick here, Andrew look… anybody’s hard-pressed to stay happy with Glenn Thibeault… cross the floor and join your party… is not a good idea, it’s whether you feel-”

Andrew 16:29 -16:37 “I’m not even gonna bring that discussion up, because I could sit here and think it up into my mind “Is it a good job decision for him, or not, or whatever…”

Gerry 16:37 “But it’s his decision.”

Andrew 16:38 – 16:45“Exactly. And I respect the fact that he, you know, wanted to hear my point of it.”

Gerry 16:45- 17:00 “I’m as much here in terms of him saying to me, that he wanted to make sure that you had… like if this had happened a week ago, and you said “hey folks, it was a week ago, how come you’re just talking to me now, piss on you…” this happened, just, when I called you-”

Andrew 17:01 “This morning.”

Gerry 17:01 “Yeah so, “are you in this afternoon” “I’m here” “okay” right? [Laughter]
Andrew 17:04 – 17:26 “I agree, and you know what, once you get in the right mindset, and where I’ve been in the past, you know, three weeks here, or whenever we had the meeting with Pat and the gang, you know, I felt great, I think that we were able to really put something together here and put this campaign-”

Gerry 17:26 -17:32 “But see that […] now I can’t say that for sure, I don’t think that was in the cards at that meeting…”

Andrew 17:32 – 17:48 “Oh this? Of course not. No no, I’m not saying that this is something that people were concocting over the last little bit and… no. But I’m saying with that feeling, moving forward, I think we will take the seat right back.”

Gerry 17:48 – 18:02 “Oh, and by the way, I think, although the NDP seem to be lining up in droves, I think it is Paul Loewenburg. Now, to be fair to Paul Loewenburg, I’m not a big fan of his person, but hey, he almost took Bartolucci out. So whoever gets the nomination, we can’t take it lightly.”

Andrew 18:02 “No.”

Gerry 18:03 -18:10 “I think it’s a lot harder for Paul Loewenburg to look Glenn Thibeault in the eye and say “you don’t understand NDP policy”… “no I think I do” okay?
Andrew 18:10 “for sure, for sure”

Gerry 18:12 – 18:47 “But having said that, he’ll like to look him in the eye and say something similar to that, Andrew. You in your heart of hearts have to say “what’s best for the riding, what’s best for Andrew, what’s best for the Wynne government?” and as you go through that checklist, all I’m gonna say to you is, I’m going out to my car, I’m gonna call her, I’m gonna say “please give Andrew a call, he will receive your call, I wanna say, I think right now, he’s still not convinced he should step down.” If you step down, I think the key thing is Andrew, you need to make a huge statement and say “I’m gonna step down and nominate Glenn so that nobody can play one against the other.”

Andrew 18:47 – 18:55 “Of course. Yeah, I would not, if I was ever gonna make that decision, it would definitely be to endorse Glenn’s position.”

Gerry 18:55 – 18:57 “Now Marianne I think has to just… get lost.”

Andrew 18:57 “She’ll just run away on that one?”

Gerry 18:59 – 19:04 “I think she has to, but again, those only after you have made your decision.”

Andrew 19:05 – 19:11“Wow. This is not the conversation I thought I’d be having but… it’s a good one none the less. Well I really appreciate-- ”

Gerry 19:11 “It’s historical my friend.”

Andrew 19:12 – 19:15 “Yes. If, like I said, give me a –"

Gerry 19:15- 19:17 “Call me tomorrow. […] I’m gonna have her call you tonight.”
Andrew 19:16 – 19:18 “Oh sure. Okay, alright.”

Gerry 19:18 “Okay, I think you need to hear everybody’s voice, and then listen to your own voice.”

Andrew 19:21 “Sure, I’ll answer whatever calls come through. Thank you very much Gerry, we’ll talk soon.”

Gerry 19:29 “Buh-bye.”